Full House Resorts (NASDAQ:FLL) reported a robust first quarter with record gaming revenues at its American Place casino in Waukegan, marking a significant 39% increase compared to April of the previous year. The company highlighted consistent monthly EBITDA generation around $3 million.
Despite the initial losses at the newly opened Chamonix casino, the company anticipates a break-even point as early as April. Full House Resorts also announced savings on property insurance costs and detailed its plans for construction and marketing strategies to enhance profitability.
Key Takeaways
- Full House Resorts achieved record monthly gaming revenues in April at American Place casino.
- Chamonix casino, which opened in stages, is expected to reach a break-even point in April after initial losses.
- A 19% decrease in property insurance costs at Silver Slipper is projected to save approximately $900,000 over 12 months.
- The company plans to begin construction of a permanent location in Waukegan in August 2025, with fundraising efforts in the next 15-18 months.
- CEO Dan Lee addressed hiring challenges at new properties, stating a stable workforce has been built, and labor issues should resolve within a year.
Company Outlook
- Full House Resorts is focused on growing the overall market share, particularly in Cripple Creek, by offering a superior environment compared to competitors.
- The company aims to attract customers and build a stable workforce at their new properties.
- Full House Resorts is prioritizing the maturation and profitability of current properties before considering acquisitions.
Bearish Highlights
- The Chamonix casino reported a loss of about $400,000 in adjusted property EBITDA for the first quarter.
- Weather complications adversely affected other properties during the quarter.
Bullish Highlights
- The company experienced a 39% increase in gaming revenues in April 2023 compared to the same month in the previous year.
- Full House Resorts expects profitability improvements as amenities are completed and marketing plans are executed.
Misses
- Initial losses were reported at Chamonix casino, although a turnaround is expected soon.
Q&A Highlights
- CEO Dan Lee discussed the potential expansion of amenities due to customer behavior at a temporary property.
- Full House Resorts is exploring the possibility of offering online sports betting to its customer database.
- The company is managing to accommodate unexpected visitation from nearby Naval Air Station personnel.
- Construction progress is on track with sufficient funding in the reserve account to complete the project.
- There are around $20 million in restricted cash to cover most of the completion costs for the construction project.
Full House Resorts has demonstrated a strong start to the year with significant revenue growth at its Waukegan property and proactive measures to address initial setbacks at the Chamonix casino. The company's strategic focus on market share growth and customer attraction, coupled with careful financial planning for upcoming construction projects, sets a positive outlook for its future operations.
InvestingPro Insights
Full House Resorts (FLL) has been making notable strides in its operations, as evidenced by the solid first quarter performance. To provide a deeper financial perspective, let's look at some key metrics and insights from InvestingPro.
InvestingPro Data shows a robust revenue growth of 47.64% over the last twelve months as of Q4 2023, highlighting the company's strong top-line performance. Despite this, Full House Resorts operates with a significant debt burden and is quickly burning through cash, as noted by InvestingPro Tips. These factors are critical to consider when assessing the company's financial health and future prospects.
The market cap of Full House Resorts stands at $180.04M, and the company's P/E ratio is currently negative at -7.1, reflecting analysts' expectations that the company will not be profitable this year. Moreover, the company's stock price movements have been quite volatile, with a 1 Month Price Total Return of -6.37% and a 1 Year Price Total Return of -27.01%.
Investors looking for more in-depth analysis and additional InvestingPro Tips can visit https://www.investing.com/pro/FLL for further insights. There are 9 more tips available on InvestingPro, providing a comprehensive view of Full House Resorts' financial performance and stock valuation.
To get the most out of InvestingPro, use coupon code PRONEWS24 to receive an additional 10% off a yearly or biyearly Pro and Pro+ subscription. This code offers a valuable opportunity for those seeking to enhance their investment strategies with real-time data and expert analysis.
Full transcript - Full House Resorts Inc (FLL) Q1 2024:
Operator: Greetings and welcome to the Full House Resorts First Quarter Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A brief question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Mr. Lewis Fanger, CFO of Full House Resorts. Thank you. Please go ahead.
Lewis Fanger: Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our first quarter earnings call. As always, before we begin, we remind you that today's conference call may contain forward-looking statements that we're making under the Safe Harbor provision of federal securities laws. I would also like to remind you that the company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in these forward-looking statements. Please see today's press release under the caption Forward-Looking Statements for the discussion of risks that may affect our results. Also, we may make reference to non-GAAP measures such as adjusted EBITDA. For a reconciliation of those measures, please see our website as well as the various press releases that we issue. And lastly, we're broadcasting this conference call at fullhouseresorts.com, where you can find today's earnings release as well as all of our SEC filings. With that said, there's a lot of good stuff to talk about in the quarter. The biggest involves American Place in Waukegan. We had a really good first quarter there. We've been setting record after record for monthly property gaming revenues recently. We had our property record in December. We beat it in February and we beat it again in March, and we don't think we're done growing yet. April gaming revenues were put out yesterday by the State of Illinois and we rose 39% versus April 2023. From an EBITDA point of view, we are now consistently generating about $3 million of EBITDA per month. We did roughly that in each of February, March and again in April that puts us on a current run rate of $36 million per year of EBITDA, which is about double, the $18 million of EBITDA that we generated at American Place during 2023. That's a good prologue for what we expect to happen over at Chamonix since its opening parallels, the opening of American Place in many ways. The most obvious is that much like the early days of American Place, Chamonix isn't fully opened yet. That's being opened in phases. And during the first quarter, our full 300 guestroom hotel gradually came online and is fully open today. Couple of weeks ago on April 19th, we opened our high-end steakhouse, 980 Prime. Our goal was to create a restaurant that could draw people from all over Colorado and early reviews have been very good. It's a very good experience. The service is very on-point. The food is delicious and just like the new steakhouse at American Place was important for our best guests. The same will be very true over at Chamonix. The next amenity to open will be the pool and spa, which we're expecting in the next few weeks. Now we did have some weather complications in the quarter, the rough winter weather that you've heard about on everyone else's earnings call, certainly applies to us here, the weekends our most important part of the week. Unfortunately the winter snow kept falling on weekends. In Colorado, we had three snow effected weekends in January, three more in February, and two in March. There was a snowstorm in March that cut off electricity to the entire town of Cripple Creek for three days. And so with all of those affected weekends, it certainly was not a normal quarter but it did allow us time to fix some of the opening kinks that we needed to work through. In terms of profitability at Chamonix we’re on the right track. We lost money in the early days when we carried a lot of excess costs that improved as the first quarter progressed. For the first quarter, our adjusted property EBITDA was a loss of about $400,000. We have not closed the books yet for April, but it looks like that should be a breakeven month. As we go into the summer, our amenities should be largely complete. We should have much better weather and our targeted marketing plan should start to kick in, all of that should continue to propel Chamonix forward and result in a pretty meaningful positive EBITDA contribution. Elsewhere in the portfolio that same winter weather affected us. I'll keep it short on the rest. But if you look at our core customer outside of those weather events, it feels like there's been stability in terms of their spend with us, and perhaps a bright spot elsewhere, I know in the past we specifically called out some costs like property insurance, at Silver Slipper that over the last few years has just grown outrageously. Some good news there, we just wrapped up our property insurance renewal and those costs will actually go down by 19% starting on May 15. That's about $900,000 in savings over the coming 12 months. That's my part. Dan, anything you want to add?
Dan Lee: I’ll address American Place first, obviously, it's -- everything is going the right direction. I don't know that we can keep the pace going for the rest of the year, up 40% of revenues but we had two months in a row now of 40%. And I think we will be up strongly as the year goes on. Obviously the comparisons get more difficult as the year goes on. But I think we'll be up strongly and we're also running margins above 30%, which is obviously a good thing. And just to put it in perspective, we're doing almost the same revenues as the downtown Chicago property. It opened in September, didn't have any impact on us at all. And that's still the case. And our gaming tax rate is a full 10 points lower than theirs. And so we're in pretty good shape. And the requirement to build the permanent, we have until -- we can operate the temporary until August of 2027 which is a special build the legislature approved for us. I assume, Valley's would probably have to seek something similar, because they have a pretty short timeline. Anyway and our commitment going forward it is about $325 million to build the permanent. And we're designing the permanent to fit that number. A lot of what we invested in the temporary will be used for the permanent like the construction of the parking lots and structures and so on. Anyway, we're very happy with the American Place. We always knew we were the closest casino to a million people and that eventually they would find their way into our tent. It's not very impressive from the outside. But once you win, it's arguably one of the nicest casinos in the state. So I think we're in good shape there. Lewis mentioned that in Chamonix, we're opening in stages. And they said they knew the hotel gradually came online during the first quarter? Well, that's just that's part of it. We now have all the guest rooms done. And on any given night there might be a handful that are out of service trying to fix something, but in effect we have all 300 rooms. But the occupancy also builds gradually. And so it's been running pretty decent occupancy on weekends, but it drops off during the week, well absent blizzards and stuff. So like most regional casinos, we're now preparing to roll out programs designed to help build the midweek midweek business unlike, if you're staying with us tonight and a weekend you can get a stay one more night on a Thursday or Friday at a much improved rate or even free. And that sort of thing to build occupancy midweek that will take some time. But the seasonality helps. I mean we opened this and the debt as part of the year. We're now coming up on summer, summers a beautiful up in the mountains of Colorado. And so I think we will be able to fill our hotels just every night, July and August. And so we should be quite profitable during the summer. And we're focused on getting meeting groups in the fall. So that when the normal vacationers start to go away, we have a lot of very good meeting space to help fill the hotel during the slower season. I'm the Silver Slipper and Rising Star, were off a little bit. Some of that was weather. And fortunately there they're not as important. I mean American Place earns more than everything else in the Company combined these days and eventually Chamonix probably will as well. But the fact that we're overlooking it, we're also looking at programs to get them back to where we want them to be. Northern Nevada. We have a lease and the Grand Lodge Casino that expires at year end. We've had some indications from clients that they would like to expand it yet. Again, it's been extended several times. So we're trying to get that linked. And then we still have a small casino in town which is there. So that's kind of where we are. We're still finishing. So we've got a jewelry store. We get one more kind of unique Speakeasy bar to get done. The spa will be opened, just before Memorial Day. We won't have all the treatment rooms, but we'll have enough treatment rooms that we can offer massages and the pool and the wet room and the locker rooms, all that’s done. The salon is being put together as we speak. So people get a haircut and stuff. So and I just suggest, I mean, we're at the point where as a company will start we are already producing positive cash flow. And I think that will build significantly as we go ahead. I mean, if you take our interest expense about $35 million to $36 million a year, American Place. A lounge should earn that. And everything else does in the mid-20s plus Chamonix everything else excluding Chamonix as something in the mid-20s. And then now Chamonix will command. And I will point out that it's not unusual, it's a lot of time to find investors. Thank you open the doors of the casino and it's an instant Slam Dunk our profit generator and that's really never the case, even last year the first quarter two was far less than what we expected and then it kicked in and it's been making $500 million a year for 20 odd years now, and the same with low-fares and lower values and all these other regional casinos. And so the good news is Chamonix is beautiful. It's getting all sorts of great accolades even we hosted the Hotel Association of Colorado which had the GMs and presidents of all the different top hotels from Vail and Aspen and Denver and Colorado Springs all were at our place and had dinner at our new restaurant and without saying names of the President of several the prominent and hotels in the state came and told us that we thought we had that we had the best restaurant in the state even better than their own. And so we're very proud of our team for that, and now we just need to fill it with people, and we will. Anyway, that's it. We're just trying to finish those things out. Very early stages on, not very early, but we're really in the designs of the permanent in Waukegan. Frankly, we've been pretty focused on Chamonix. We have until August of 2027, as I mentioned. And that's not even a requirement to open the permanent. That's just the outside data which we can operate the temporary. And you really don't want there to be a gap. You want to be able to move customers and employees seamlessly to the new place. So that means we really have to start construction about two years ahead of that, so August of 2025, which means we have 15 to 18 months to raise the money before we start construction. But even that is not a requirement, because the early stages of construction aren't a whole lot of money. And so there's probably six months of construction we could do just out of free cash flow. And so we have a couple of years to figure out the financing. And our bonds have come back. They're not quite back to par, but they're well off their bottom. And so our guess is at the right time we go to the high-yield market and refinance our debt. But it's not imminent, and let's get Colorado making good money and then people will see that we're actually less levered than most casino companies and at that point we should be able to refinance the debt on favorable terms with the extra money to build American Place, so that's the strategy, that's the plan. On that, happy to take any questions.
Operator: Thank you. We will now be conducting a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Ryan Sigdahl from Craig Hallum. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Analyst: Okay. Good afternoon. This is Will on for Ryan. Thanks for taking our questions First question here, how do you think you've shifted share in the overall Cripple Creek market? Obviously, it's a pretty slow start to the season, given a lot of that snow on the weekends. But curious where you think it's at right now and where it could ideally be long-term?
Dan Lee: Well, I think long-term we grow the market. And we get this a lot like, clearly, we account for more than 100% of the increase and Cripple Creek has been showing increases. But that's not the whole picture. You have to almost look at all of Colorado. And when I look at where our pricing should be or our promotion should be, we look at what Ameristar and Monarch are doing up in Black Hawk, because they're comparable to us in scale and quality. I think we're nicer, maybe not quite as big. We have 300 guest rooms. They each have about 500. But we are nice, and frankly, it's a more romantic environment. I mean, Black Hawk is, I think, legally a historical mining town, but if you go there, you see very few vestiges of it. And Cripple Creek feels a little bit like Colonial Williamsburg out of brick. And so I think we're a better environment. Now, distance-wise, the southern parts of the Denver MSA are about equal distance. So Centennial, Castle Rock, and so on, they can go to us as easily as they can go to Black Hawk. And so, obviously, we're doing double the revenue. Well, last year's revenues weren't very high. We're doing double, and that's not even close to what we should be doing and will be doing. But I think it comes from growing the market. I mean, the gaming per capita in Colorado Springs is one of the lowest places I know of in the country, and there's no inherent reason for that. So I think we grow the market. We have a few good competitors in Cripple Creek. I mean, Golden Nugget, having bought Wildwood and re-branded it, it's very professionally run now, and that's positive for them, of course, and for us as well. They have 100 rooms, and their rooms are about the quality of a Fairfield Inn. But they do fine. And then Triple Crown is our other major competitor right across the street from us. And also across the street from us is the original Century Casino. And they're right next to us. So the people staying at our hotel will end up going over there sometimes. There is a weak competitor in town called the Double Eagle. And the owner, I think the second of two owners has now passed away. And so it's a little bit tied up in probate and so on. It's a pretty big facility, but not close to us, and it's probably the weak sister in town. If somebody gets hit, it's probably them. But they've been the weak sister for an awfully long time. So that's the Cripple Creek market, is pretty simple. Then there's two tiny, tiny little places that are just being bought by Michael Gaughan that, I think their strategy is to have a place for our employees to go after work. And that's a perfectly fine strategy for small casino. And that's pretty much it, but you can. You almost have to look at Colorado as a whole, because it -- and to a very large extent we view and particularly Monarch as our competitor. I don't think we're going to take -- I don't think we're going to hurt them either. Even the Denver market is underserved and if you start looking at what people in say Seattle, Campo and people in Seattle have to drive up into the mountains to because gaming is all on Indian reservations, but the quality of the stuff that the tribes have built in Washington is quite good. And that's one of the few states. You can actually get the tribal casino gaming revenues and when you look at it the people in the state of Washington are gambling about three -- I think it's $375 per capita now, which is over double what the people of Colorado gambling. And there's no inherent differences in religion or education or something that would explain that. I would think people in Colorado will eventually gamble as much as people in Washington and there's other markets too. You can look at like in California, there's -- they gamble about $350 per capita to and most of the people do not live near a casino, they have to drive an hour to get to a tribal casino or four hours to get to Las Vegas. And so when you start looking at it the danger and which is somewhere around $200 per capita gambling and Colorado Springs was even lower than that. I think as people understand the quality of what we built we grow the market.
Lewis Fanger: Yes. I think there's not a lot to glean from the first quarter for what it's worth that when that winter weather on weekends is just -- was just pretty ratchet. I think maybe the more important takeaway is we have a market that isn't trained yet to go to Cripple Creek when it snows, because they're used to there not being any rooms in town. And I think conversely, when you look at Black Hawk, I've been the Black Hawk during a snowstorm before, and I've been a Monarch specifically to hearing a snowstorm on accidents. But what I can tell you was it was a casino that was still pretty bustling, because people know that they're -- they know that they have their rooms. People don't yet know that in Colorado Springs for us. They assume that if there's a snowstorm and they drive our way, they might get stuck there without a place to sleep for the night. And so this is all stuff that will change in time. But look it's up. I'll tell you where I find comfort is we always worry heading into these openings. Did we build the right thing? Do we build something that's approachable? That's nice that people will feel comfortable. And I will tell you overwhelmingly, I think the answer to that is yes.
Dan Lee: I mean the number of customers say it's a miniature version of Villaggio. Chris, we don't have the talents and so on. But the point being that the quality of the finishes or what you would have it at Wynn or one of the high end the MGM places? Not surprisingly, we used to have a lot of the same designers and whenever they were only 300 rooms. So we're a 10th of the number of guestrooms are the typical Las Vegas casino, and our casino itself is a few hundred slot machines instead of a few thousand. So a smaller but you only stay in one guestroom at a time you only play one slot machine at a time. When guestrooms do you really need. And so where we will eventually educate people the quality of it and a little bit more of a problem here. It actually is pretty similar to Lake Charles when we dealt there. There were really crappy casinos in Lake Charles before L'Auberge, and almost had to reeducate people in Houston that there was something notion like Charles they thought of it as a chemical dump. And here people have been to Cripple Creek before the product was very good. It had a $5 maximum bet et cetera. And now to say no you really got to come and take a look at it again it's different. And there's a -- I had an acquaintance there who is owns a liquor distributorship and he came up to Cripple Creek for the opening of our restaurants. And it is everybody tells you how great their facility is. He was blown away when you walked in a city had, no idea. And this is a guy whose family had been in the casino business years ago and a city had no idea that somebody built something that nice in Cripple Creek. And so, now he's coming back up with the sales force from his Liquor Distribution business having a meeting at our plate software to eventually get so.
Unidentified Analyst: Okay. Thanks for that guys. Sorry Dan go ahead.
Dan Lee: Yes, as Lewis said the win per slot machine per day and I recognize but half our slot machines or Colorado or in Germany and about half are in Bronco Billy's is actually up. And the win per slot machine per day in Chamonix is by far the highest in the market. And the interesting thing is the win per slot machine per day in Bronco Billy's is actually up because the spillover from Chamonix going into Bronco Billy's.
Lewis Fanger: So yes, we're still we're still not – we lead the city. We do not yet come close to Black Hawk. But again as we fill the rooms that will all change in time.
Dan Lee: Let's look at another question.
Unidentified Analyst: Fair enough. Thanks for the color there guys. Maybe – just curious maybe on labor at the new properties. I know there's a few struggles maybe in past years and just kind of industry-wide now that you've got you know a few months and a year in the case of Waukegan under your belt. How do you feel about that?
Dan Lee: Well, there were different challenges in Waukegan. The challenge is that every single employee must be licensed by the Gaming Commission and that's a pretty ominous form that they have to fill out. And it's only provided in English when we're in a community that's about half Hispanic. And so that the hiring process was complicated by not the regulators because the regulations are set in place by the state legislature and it just is what it is. That's what the lows we had to adhere to it. And so it took time to build a stable workforce. I think we're there now. We have a good stable workforce and a good management team on top of that. We always have some people quit since we always have to train new people but it is it has stabilized and the first nine months it was struck. And now on Chamonix dishwashers don't have to be licensed. So it's an easier process. And but you're at 10000 feet on the backside of Pikes Peak. And so the population of the talent is 1200 in total and probably 40% of those are either retirement age or kids. And so there's not enough people in Chamonix too to staff our place a low level on all the casinos but there's places like fluorescent which is nearby and Woodland Park and a number of our employees actually commute from Colorado Springs, which if you live on the west side of Colorado Springs was placed for Manitou space. So that's a doable commute. And that's not unlike our offices in Las Vegas are here in Summerlin and Lewis commutes from Anthem or greenbelt hill side of town and so not much different than going from Colorado Springs to Cripple Creek. And so we are – I mean it is a challenge but we are everyday able to hire some people and build the team. And then we also used some outsourcing of labor which has helped. So for example, the cleaning of the guestrooms has been done by a cleaning company who does it for normal hotels as well as other casinos. And that's worked out pretty well. They do all the hospitals in Colorado Springs. So they had a big pool of people drawn.
Lewis Fanger: So yes, it will be a non-issue in a year. We're not too worried about it. It is – if you're an employee or any other casino in town you see the very big difference between our quality and others and the pure, especially if you're an attempt to position it becomes the easy move into our building.
Dan Lee: And you find some surprise like for example, we have a pastry chef who’s world-class, who’s written books about it. He’s done a terrific job. And every time I'm there. I have to remind myself not to eat too many of his pastries or won’t eat my sweets anymore and he used to be in Denver and he wanted to live in the mountains with this big dogs. So he kind of sought us out and he's enjoying the mountain life. So sometimes it does work in here benefits.
Unidentified Analyst: Good to hear. Thanks guys.
Operator: Thank you. Your next question comes from Ricardo Chinchilla from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Ricardo Chinchilla: Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking the question and for all the great color. I was doing in a different direction, just potentially some assets of the rightsize that might come to the market, let's say six to nine months, someone – somebody like Keith has talked about it. Are you guys committed to give that to deleveraging or to build cash for the facility? Are you know the right opportunity for acquisition is something that could be too tempting for you guys with regards to your strategy and capital allocation priorities?
Dan Lee: Well, this is as good as we're willing to sell Caesars (NASDAQ:CZR) Palace for four times cash flow we'll figure it out. But we look at a lot of things. You almost always learn something from it. We did get into the Colorado market through acquisition. We acquired Bronco Billy's at six times cash flow at the time and had a bunch of our surplus land. And then we added to the surplus land, which allowed us to build Chamonix. But it's not. We don't have to I mean and frankly, if all you – if you run the math and just say, okay just get this stuff mature and you get Chamonix up to I mean Monarch is making over $100 million a year. We have two-thirds as many guestrooms is that. Can we make 50? We should be able to. It's not going to happen tomorrow but we should be able to get to that sort of number. And it might take us a couple of years to get there but and then in Waukegan, and we were going to 35 to 40 this year and probably better than that next year. And then the permanent casino is probably a big notch up from there. And if you start playing, with the numbers and say well, they have to spend $325 million to build the permanent, but about half of that has probably generated from free cash flow. And so the debt today is $450 million. The permanent opens, we might be something like $600 million and then you say well if they're making $100 million in Illinois and $50 million in Colorado and $40 million and all the other properties, you work backwards, our stock will be three times or four times, five times where it is today. And Lewis and I and the rest of the management team, it's a big part of our net worth is tied up in the company. And so, we look at it, like let's not screw that up. We have a very good story that I'm going to start. We have a very good company. We just need to get this stuff to mature and stay focused on it, and you can go out. And without naming companies, there's a competitor of ours who we would look at once in a while that may be acquiring and boy in the last couple of years they went out and sold their good assets to a REIT and took the money from that, leveraged against it and bought a bunch of share. And now we look at it and say, well let's not do that, okay. And their stock has not done well. I'm not naming the company, but what I just said probably closed about four times. So I would say, we're very careful to not make mistakes at Bobby Baldwin used to have a saying I really like its hard to not do a bad deal, because there's so many bad deals out there and they're so easy to do, and so I'm not going to say, we will never do an acquisition
Lewis Fanger: It can be very compelling.
Dan Lee: It needs to be very compelling, because it we want to make sure that and the other thing is, when you say are we committed to delevaging. Yes, because just the -- I don't view us as highly levered now, because I'm very confident in this stuff maturing, as any new casino does. And so I look at it that, I don't think because they're highly levered now, but we will delever as Chamonix comes online and becomes more profitable and as Waukegan continues to do better and then we'll lever up a little bit, but still less than most casino companies to go build the permanent and when the permanent opens we’ll be one of the least leveraged casino companies. Now, I don't think it makes sense for us to have low leverage, but I also don't want to be highly levered all the time. So if we can be in a spot where our EBITDA is two times three times four times interest expense, that's very comfortable place to be. And we're not too far from being in that range now.
Lewis Fanger: So as a – some of that covers the bonds I'm sure you're very happy with that. If I look -- at the end point. This is a company that last year did whatever it was $48 million to $49 million of EBITDA. And we think that number realistically should be somewhere in the low to mid hundreds ,when everything we I don't know if the number is up -- take your pick a number whether it's $120 million $130 million $150 million, whatever number you want to use. I'm throwing out numbers by the way, I'm not giving you guidance, but realistically, that's where everything should be ramping up towards. And so we need to make sure that that works correctly. That will always be job number one here for us, because that has massive massive growth on assets that we've already invested the capital in.
Dan Lee: And -- I don't want to be completely wedded to those. But just strategically, we do view ourselves as having multiple – stakeholders, it’s not just shareholders, now legally we know shareholders and most states I think including Nevada, that is our primary responsibility. But if you look back at the track record, I had at Mirage and that Lewis and I had it at Pinnacle of both of those companies were gradually improving credits the entire time ,we were there. And so we may lever up to go build something, but we don't just lever up to lever up and we do pay attention to trying to be an improving credit as well. And so, there's a lot of different aspects to this.
Lewis Fanger: And I'll just give it out and there's no ego in wanting to be big, just to be big either for what it's worth.
Dan Lee: Yes. I mean I kind of -- I will freely tell you I admire [indiscernible] and they are a pretty good company and they trade pretty well. They’re only have two places and they stay very focused on the two and it doesn't seem to hurt their valuation. And so as we evolve, we're going to have two principal places, which are the two new ones. And then the Silver Slipper is still be important and the other stuff is pretty small. So – its not that we don't love the team at Rising Sun because I'm sure you're listening on this, its has 300 guestrooms in the golf course and they're doing a terrific job. But being realistic, we make more money in it couple of months and color in Waukegan than we do in a year at Rising Sun.
Lewis Fanger: All right. Next question.
Dan Lee: Oh Steve. I saw – was that Steve registered?
Lewis Fanger: No
Ricardo Chinchilla: Thank you so much guys. Dan, Lewis I appreciate all the color and that's kind of what you want to hear being -- covering the bonds. Thank you.
Dan Lee:
Operator: Thank you. Your next question comes from Jordan Bender, Citizen's JMP Securities. Please go ahead.
Eric Ross: Hi, this is Eric Ross on for Jordan. Thanks for taking our question. Now, you've operated the temporary for about a year plus and with the delay of the American place with velocity as customer behavior or preference at the property changed any rethinking around what is ultimately built there in terms of amenities?
Dan Lee: I'm like -- well, I mean, we have designed a place that can be easily expanded and we're going to start with kind of the core of it. And then as the business builds somewhere down the road it can be expanded. And by the way I do that conceptually all the time we have a way to add rooms at Germany. Also, we have a way to add rooms at the Silver Slipper. And we're not doing our job. If we're not thinking through of where it might go a public company goes forever. So 10 years from now somebody might go build those hotel towers and now -- and we have learned some things from Waukegan. I mean, that that reverses a very loyal clientele. We haven't Nick them very much in fact, I think we had very little impact on the Bally's casino seems to have had a little bit of an impact on it but they are still there £500 gorilla in the state they make far more revenue than anybody else in the state. I thought we would impact the video lottery machines more than we have. That was interesting, and we've been kind of scratching our heads saying why are people still going to the closet at the back of liquor store to place six slot machines, when our environment is much nicer, and maybe that's convenience, like there you pull a new strip shopping mall you park your car and you walk in your 20 feet from the slot machine. Well maybe we need to think about offering valet parking that we don't today are trying to figure out how to how do we get into that market. People don't eat as much and that's interesting and we have we have two pretty good-sized restaurants and then we two months ago opened the high end restaurants. The high in-restaurant seems to have kicked our casino revenues up quite a bit. And that was that in a little, if you look at the turnstile and you're getting 2,000 people a day in the casino and then you look at the steakhouse. It's serving 150 people a day at best. And so it really but those 150 people are perhaps your most important people. And so getting it open. But if you look at the food covers relative to the gaming revenue I mean Louis and I live here in Las Vegas and we frequently end up walking into the Red Rock Casino or Durango station or something for a male because they have great restaurants uniting think twice about it. That pattern has not happened in Illinois a number of people go to a restaurant and a casino is relatively small. And that's interesting and that's kind of like. Okay why is that? And part of that is you have to go through the security and show your driver's license and all that whereas in Nevada you don't. So part of that is perhaps the regulations part of this the design. And so for example at Durango station win. And I will tell you I think stations did a fantastic job at Durango station and I go in there. They have probably the best of food question. I have a food court. What do they call it? Food Hall that I've ever seen as very well done. Lots of different brands and so on. And we're scratching our heads saying okay how do we do something like that in Waukegan and maybe it's like part in part out of the casino environments you can kind of get around the regulation So you know it is you learn a lot from Durango station did not have a large a system of corridors underneath the casino to get the food from one loading dock to the restaurants. They designed it more like a shopping mall where the rest of each restaurant has its own luck. Loading dock to restaurants will share a loading dock and on the outside of billings kind of camouflage that it's a loading dock that's pretty typical in shopping malls, but not very typical. And casinos saves a lot of money and what I realized what they were doing and say okay let's think about this for Waukegan because we can save the money of building these expensive corridors. So that the food gets distributed throughout the property it just makes Cisco (NASDAQ:CSCO) make multiple stops at their expense. And so there are things we've learned, the customers it has built. I thought, it might ramp up a little faster than it is. And when, I look at why it's not I think the outside of the building is a big part of that. I mean we tried to build this very quickly, and we used a sprung structure at night. At night, we project things on this current structure to make it look interesting but it's not affecting building. It's not like if you drive down the strip and see Bellagio with the Fountains going every bone in your body wants to get into the building on the other side it draws you win and our and our tenant doesn't do that. It looks like where the Department of Public Works store salt for the winter. And so we've been getting past that when we build the permanent casino it will be fetch. It will draw you. And I think it's pretty remarkable that we're doing $9.5 million a month in revenue in a row stretched Kevlar fabric tint and the kind of shows you what can be done to permanent and that. But I think that the delay from the part of the lawsuit which I am convinced is a nuisance lawsuit. I was there when they made their presentation and if I were on city council, I would have just said, you operate a tribal casino across the state line that pays much less in taxes and none of it goes to Illinois. Why the hell would we choose you? That's all you needed to say. But if you didn't know that and you just saw their presentation, it's like that is the ugliest piece of shit I've ever seen. I wouldn't pick them for that. So I don't think there's any leg they can stand on where they should have gotten this license. I think they're just -- they make a lot of money in Milwaukee. They're using a piece of it to try to delay us. But that delay is perhaps good because it's allowed the high-yield market to come back. I think it will come back more. It allows us to get Chamonix open and get it ready and have it being contributing cash flow that can be used for the permanent and allows us time to think more about the permanent so we build the smartest and best casino possible. So don't get me wrong. It would have been better if the Potawatomi had not filed the lawsuit and we could have moved faster. But the fact that they did has some benefits to us as well.
Lewis Fanger: Only because we're running out of time. Quick thing here too. I will tell you what always catches my eyes every month when I look at the gaming report from Illinois is number one in the state, like in April, $42 million from Rivers. Number two, $12 million of gaming revenue. It's a $30 million gap between number one and number two in the state. It is a bananas thing to look at. And then when you start thinking, well, wait a minute, that is our closest competitor and we have these northern suburbs of Chicago that are just still underpenetrated in terms of overall gaming spend. I'm not saying that we're going to hit $42 million of gaming revenue, by the way, but it just keeps my eyes wide open as to what the ultimate potential will be for us when we have a beautiful building that people actually want to walk inside of. So, anyway.
Dan Lee: Yeah. The Potawatomis up in Milwaukee also generate $450 million a year in revenue. Yeah. And so we're doing 25% of what either of them are doing. Yeah. And I think we can do... In one of the wealthiest counties in the country. Yeah. So I think we're in a great location, great barriers of entry. Nobody else can get a casino anywhere near us. I've got a flurry of stuff. There's an Indian tribe out of Kansas or Oklahoma that's getting some recognition of a potential Indian reservation southwest of Chicago. And I got a bunch of phone calls. Well, they're obviously doing this to try to get a casino. Is that going to impact you? If you get out a map and look at it, it's a long ways from us. It may impact... I forget whether it was -- I think it's Aurora. It's not too far from them. That's not us. And then there's a different Indian tribe who's trying to get another casino up in Wisconsin. I think the Potawatomis are pretty opposed to that, and the Potawatomis are a force to be reckoned with in Wisconsin. So there's lots of barriers to entry. It doesn't mean people won't try, but it's very hard to build a new casino there. Whereas in a place like Nevada, Mississippi, Atlantic City, there's very few barriers to entry. Okay.
Eric Ross: Okay. Yeah. That's great to hear. And then maybe just a quick follow-up. Could you speak about some of the trends you've seen in a legacy portfolio in the first quarter and how you expect those properties to perform for the rest of the year? Thank you.
Dan Lee: We expect them to perform better. The Silver Slipper was a weaker quarter, and I don't have a good reason for it other than we were a little distracted with Colorado, and we want to get back in and understand what they're doing. We've got to get smarter at marketing or smarter at controlling the payroll or both. And that happens sometimes. It's still done okay, but it should be making a little more money than it is. Rising Sun is doing okay. It's always been a tough property. There is a new racino that opened in northern Kentucky in September of 22, I guess it was. And it's been building some market share, which has been a little bit of a challenge. We've done relatively well despite that. And then Churchill also has built some stuff down in Louisville, the other side of us. But we're hanging in there. Tahoe, it's often driven by weather, what goes on in Incline Village. If we get a normal month, all of a sudden we'll have great income, and then all of a sudden we'll have too much snow or too little snow. It's just the nature of a tourist place like that. And Fallon, it depends on whether there's a.
Lewis Fanger: Well, it's really a Navy base. yeah. And in March and April, the Navy had increased in visitation. It didn't happen in January and February, but it was back in March and April.
Dan Lee: It's a little -- when the aircraft carriers go into San Diego, a lot of people don't know this. To take off a plane on an aircraft carrier, the carrier has to be moving. And you need that headwind of, like, 10 miles an hour, 15 miles an hour, for the planes to get off the carrier. And so when it goes into San Diego Harbor before it gets to the harbor, any plane that is capable of being flown has taken off and then they go Land & Naval Air Station. Well then while that boat is being outfitted or people are on leave. And so on the pilots and copilot and mechanics and everything they've got developed for training. And so it's a Naval Air Station kind of in the middle of Nevada. And it gets a little frustrating because our business surges whenever there is a keg carrier Air Group in town, but it's like considered the national secret when they're coming. So the Air Force base doesn't tell us, yes we've got a whole bunch people coming next week. All of a sudden, we just find people in uniform showing up in our casino and then we're scrambling to accommodate them. So yes, it's a unique little market, yes very small for us at this point, but it's okay.
Lewis Fanger: We have to ask people in the queue for trying to get through them real quick.
Dan Lee: I should mention the sports betting, the Illinois which is the bulk of it is doing fine. And some of the other licenses are not being used now. And we continue to look for either partners or possibility of doing something very modest where we don't lose money and offer sports betting online ourselves, mainly for the people who are in our database as kind of an amenity. And I think that could be done without losing money. Other questions.
Operator: Thank you. Your next question comes from Chad Beynon from Macquarie. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Analyst: Hi, this is Sam on for Chad. Thanks for taking our questions. So monthly GGR the temporary in Waukegan just taking a step up into the $9 million to $10 million range, what further required at the temporary to get another step up into the $11 million range? And what do you think run rate EBITDA would be at that mark?
Lewis Fanger: I'll be frank, it's time. I think people don't realize sometimes that when you open these new casinos different marketing promotions work in some places and they don't work in others. And so for us it feels like we've really cracked the code for us on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, no other days in the week. It feels like we're still making tweaks and figuring out what brings and those players in real time. And I'm not going to -- don't spill the secret sauce for what we've learned already. We spent the last year and change learning it ourselves. But I will tell you we've run some recent events that we think are promising. And so I think we're getting there, but at the end of the day that database continues to grow that probably the most important thing. We're over 71,000 people in the database now. And it's that and really just learning and quite honestly using that's take us now to maximum benefit.
Dan Lee: Last year at this call, we would about talking about 10000 or 20000 people in the database. So but actually the other thing I noticed yesterday when Illinois results came out from the Gaming Commission and looking through it and they have a column of square footage and it shows us a 70,000 square feet and River Zone A little bigger than us. But based and I looked at it at that it shows us as being one of the largest in the state and square footage. And I actually stopped and thought I wonder if that's including our restaurants that are in the tent or not including the restaurants? I'm not sure, but I think it's the more I think about -- I think it's probably accurate because places like Grand Vic and I were and Juliette those are riverboats and they are stacked and crowded and not a whole lot of square footage are places a large single level casino 70,000 square feet. And so, I don't think we're if you go in there on a Friday night. Sure it's busy. I mean of course busy, but we're not close to capacity. I mean I remember at the bears down in Lake Charles we used to do $500 per machine per day. We're not doing that here yet. And interestingly a couple of reverses doing they might be close, but it's we can do a lot more revenue in our 70,000 square foot than we're doing now and I think it will continue to build.
Unidentified Analyst: Thank you. And then as a follow up what are the marketing plans for Germany as we head into the summer months and the potential for increasing group hotel revenue?
Dan Lee: Well, the group's book quite a ways in advance. So we're trying to -- we have a sales team now. It's for a very small. We're trying to augment it. And that's really about putting business on the books for the fall, the winter and thereafter. Because if you call up the group now and say, hey why don't you bring your group to replace in June while they already have a book somewhere, they've already told their attendees where they are and so on. So that's a -- that's a more long-term thing. Now summers, people go to the mountains in the summer. So I think we will fill with gamblers and retail customers in July and August even midweek. But there is a lot of stuff as you go in part of the way the hotel business has evolved. The Expedia (NASDAQ:EXPE) contract says if you offer a $150 rate on your website than Expedia has allowed to offer $150 rate on their website and they keep 20% of it before they give you 80% of it. And so whenever you're booking, go to the hotel website where you're traveling and look for a button that says offers. And they will have offers and it's very hard for the Expedia backed us try to compare the offers and all of a sudden you'll see well rooms $150. But if I do this weekend package I get free valet parking and breakfast and a bottle of champagne in the room or something. And then -- so wait a minute that's much better than booking and Expedia. And so more and more you'll see hotel chains kind of doing that. Well if you go and look at our competition in Colorado and click on the offers button there's all sorts of creative stuff there that we will have as well soon that says, hey, if any and you tried to direct business to the midweek, and so in an email goes out to people that maybe there's a database that we've been able to purchase. That tells us these are retired people in Castle Rock who tend to gamble and we will send them a saying that says, hey come on up and try us. We'll give you a meal coupon on the weekend. But if you want to come during the week, we'll give you a hotel room. And so you're try to drive business to the midweek. And that's the case. That's always been the key in Las Vegas as well. I mean the hotels in Las Vegas would naturally fill every weekend by people who drove over from LA and that's still the case. And the entire convention business that's been built up period 60 years is about trying to fill the midweek and that's why you'll notice when Comdex [ph] show starts it's like well it starts on Monday morning because they want you to fly in on Sunday night because their hotel is otherwise going to be empty on Sunday night. But the hotels on the strip want that convention holiday here before the weekend because you're likely to get people who are more prone to gamble and pay more for their rooms in their food retail than you do for meetings and groups anyway that's just the hotel business.
Lewis Fanger: And time -- and time will help to. We know that database will continue to grow. I mean we picked up about 5000 people in that database in the first quarter. That's going to get kicked into a next level of overdrive in the second and third quarter with better weather. And so with that database it's obviously important as well.
Unidentified Analyst: Thanks, guys. Best of luck.
Lewis Fanger: Okay. Thank you. Oh, my gosh I think we have time for one last question if you can be quick there.
Operator: Thank you. Your last question comes from David Hargreaves from Barclays. Please go ahead.
David Hargreaves: Hi. Congrats on the successful opening. I'm just wondering if there's any more adjustments to where the final budget is shaking out? And could you talk about the cadence of pay payments over the next few months. I assume there's probably some construction payables. Anything you could give us on that would be helpful. Thank you.
Dan Lee: Although there's a $20 million -- and roughly $20 million of restricted cash and the restricted cash account still and that should pay for completion of it. There's some small amounts outside of that but they're small and not very material. And so the -- when we when we started this process and issued the bonds, the bond buyers and the underwriters, requested that we have a construction reserve account and actually that is kind of nice for us because as a third-party who monitors all the construction expenditures and make sure that you're in balance that you always have enough money in the construction reserve account to complete the project. And so I think we're fine and..
Lewis Fanger: it's been a relatively slow spend from here. A lot of it honestly just sitting and retention for what it's worth. You know, last month I think our job was like three a little over $3 million. So it's kind of trickling out at this point, but certainly by the time you head into Well my gosh I my gut says in the third quarter you'll see that have been exhausted but the but it could drag on slightly longer.
Dan Lee: I mean it gives you an example that we have a big surface parking lot across car and Midway to construction. We were able to buy three houses that finished off the rectangle. So it's a clear rectangle. Well that makes that parking lot a little bigger than it was before. So there's some additional curbing and asphalting that wasn't covered in the construction reserve number and will be paid for separately. But it's not a big number. That's the sort of thing you run into.
David Hargreaves: Got it. You guys think you file the queue tonight or assume we?
Lewis Fanger: Yes I think in the next 30 that's the goal I watch for it. But if you have a really boring that I had David you'll have that reading for?
David Hargreaves: Yes. Thanks very much. Congrats again.
Lewis Fanger: Thank you.
Dan Lee: Thank you. We done?
Lewis Fanger: Yes. We wrap it up, Dan.
Dan Lee: Thank you, everybody. I would actually urge you to get to these places if you can because they speak for themselves. So when you walk into Germany oh my gosh I actually when you pull up to Germany and say oh my gosh whereas in Waukegan when you fill up you say this looks like a public works fresh. And then when you walk in it surprising even to me sometimes I stepped in there on a weekday two or three weeks ago and worked in and places surprisingly busy unlike a Wednesday night then it's like okay that's [indiscernible]. So it is there's no one replacement to actually visiting these things once in a while. So both for us running it and for you guys investing in it. So anyway thank you very much for your support and we'll see when couple of months.
Operator: Thank you. This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
This article was generated with the support of AI and reviewed by an editor. For more information see our T&C.